another of my far-fetched schemes

what (inexpensive) method can i use to change the pitch of audio without affecting the speed? is it even possible? i have Peak LE and Final Cut Pro - mac only, but they don't seem to have this option. i know the full peak does.

thanks for any ideas!

you can use EQ to change the pitch to a certain extent. like if you want to go lower on an actor's voice, you can boost up the low end of the audio and trim the high, and so it sounds like he has a lower voice.

if you want to do really drastic changes, you need something like pitch control in ProTools. but that costs money.

unfortunitly i really want the drastic changes

i was hoping some awesome shareware programmer had made a cheap little program to do it

Try to get your hands on adobe audition it's a great sound editing program.

Try Amazing Slow Downer. This would be a very very last resort kinda thing as its quite buggy and would be a hassle to do lots of audio.

hmmm - it slows down without effecting pitch. so that in combination with a speed change that DOES effect pitch should be able to create some workable pitch changes thanks!

great! i downloaded it to my iBook - it runs perfectly in panther. it can change the pitch regardless of the speed. awesome.

Found somethin that might work out better.
Audacity

sweet! how do you find this stuff?? lol i'll download it asap and let you know how it goes!

FYI-

EQ doesn't change pitch. EQ has nothing to do with pitch. EQ deals with "frequencies".

Pitch - Frequencies


Two totally different things.


Jay

well EQ can change our percieved pitch, they use it on voices all the time to change pitch.

but you're right, it changes pitch by picking certain frequencies out of all the frequencies that make a normal human voice. so if you only pick out the low end frequencies present in someone's voice, you end up with a lower sounding voice, making it sound lower in pitch, although you're just bringing out things that are already there.

if you use a notch filter and turn up the volume on it, and slide it around someone's voice recording, you can actualy make them sound girlish or manly.

but i think ProTools also has a pitch shifter i think it's called Harmonizer. and it's meant more for music, because it'll really process the hell out of a voice. and i think what it does is analyze the wave form and then ovewrite it with whatever increment of change of pitch you pick. so you can adjust keys i guess, in case an instrument is off?

never really had to use it. but look up Harmonizer, i think, if there's plug ins for the programs you have, and maybe that's the effect you're looking for.

Let me explain a little further... (BTW- I'm an audio guy, composer, engineer, etc.)

I'm gonna respond to all of your comments since you took the time:

quote:

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well EQ can change our percieved pitch, they use it on voices all the time to change pitch.

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That's actually incorrect. You are not hearing a "pitch change" you are hearing "frequency modulation". You could say you are "perceiving" a pitch change but it's fundamentally incorrect. No one uses EQ to change pitch because it's an impossibility. Again you are confusing "pitch" with "frequency". They are related but not the same....


If we take the note "C' played by a piano can we change the "pitch" with EQ? No, it will always be a C note.... you are merely modulating it's frequency "range" by using a "High Q" and sweeping the range of the note. (frequency range --i.e. 20 Hz to 20 k).

quote:

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but you're right, it changes pitch by picking certain frequencies out of all the frequencies that make a normal human voice.

---

Again, EQ doesn't change pitch (perhaps perceived pitch -- but that's meaningless in situations where you need to "actually" change the pitch. That's why it wont work for that application).

quote:

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so if you only pick out the low end frequencies present in someone's voice, you end up with a lower sounding voice, making it sound lower in pitch, although you're just bringing out things that are already there.

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In that description you aren't "changing" anything, you are "emphasizing" and "de-emphasizing" certain frequencies --- having nothing to do with the fundamental pitch really. You are half right in that you are
"bringing out", in a sense, what is already there. Which means the pitch is the "same" pitch you started out with.

quote:

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if you use a notch filter and turn up the volume on it, and slide it around someone's voice recording, you can actualy make them sound girlish or manly.

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That's actually untrue. You can make their voice sound "thinner" or "fuller", but to change a voice you need a pitch change (i.e.. "transposition"). Try to make a mans voice sound like a woman's, or vice versa, using EQ -- it's not possible.

quote:

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but i think ProTools also has a pitch shifter i think it's called Harmonizer. and it's meant more for music, because it'll really process the hell out of a voice. and i think what it does is analyze the wave form and then ovewrite it with whatever increment of change of pitch you pick. so you can adjust keys i guess, in case an instrument is off?

---

I think you may be confusing an "Autotuner" and a "Harmonizer" in that example. But yes there are many Harmonizers / Pitchsifters out there, not just in Pro-Tools.

quote:

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but look up Harmonizer, i think, if there's plug ins for the programs you have, and maybe that's the effect you're looking for.

---

That IS a true statement! Yes the ONLY way to change the "pitch" is to "change the pitch". You gotta start out with the right tool.


Definition:

Pitch: The subjective sensation produced by various frequencies. The higher the frequency, the higher the perceived pitch; however, frequency is not linearly related to pitch.


Which means you are 'perceiving' a pitch change when using EQ, but if you use the example of a piano you'll see that you can't "actually" change the pitch with EQ, which is why you can't change a mans voice to a woman's using EQ. Because the "fundamental" pitch can't be changed with EQ (you can only emphasize or de-emphasize what is already there to start --- you can't 'transpose' the note)

Make sense?



Jay

ha, we're discussing things sort off topic, but i think it could help doughnut in the future.

i thought he was just trying to lower someone's voice or maybe make it higher, so i suggested the EQ, and then said if he needed something more than that, EQ isn't going to cut it

and then when you posted that about EQ not changing the actual sine wave of pitch, i agreed with you, and said that the EQ solution would be to change our perception of what pitch a voice is at.

but then you keep telling me changing the shape of a sin wave is different from picking out a certain sin wave as if i hadn't already agreed with you on that point.

it makes me wonder, why are you being so particular with me?

the suggestion I offered wasn't that EQ would change middle-C on the piano to high-C, but it did suggest that if you hit all the C's on a piano, or even hit all the keys on the piano at once, you can use the EQ to find low-C, middle-C, high-C, and in effect change the percieved pitch.

and i never said you can change a man's voice or a woman's voice. you can't even change a man's voice to another man's voice, since they are unique. i said you can make the man sound girlish or manly, which are adjectives i used. you used the adjectives thinner and fuller. but that's just different uses of adjectives between us.

so =P

do you write music jay? i'd like to hear some, i need to start getting some original music made i think.

also, i've been taught pretty well on ProTools all the basics and some more advanced theory/techniques of audio engineering. my teacher did the sound mixing for the documentary, The Weather Underground.

The reason i'm being particular is because this stuff is particular in nature, it's pretty black and white... most engineers would go much more in depth than I have. Don't consider this an attack against you personally. But yes, I've been doing this stuff for a long time... it's my job (composing + engineering / producing --- my own stuff). Some of the things you are saying are misleading and, well, untrue. So I'm pointing that out.... is all.



The original question was about 'pitch'. Changing pitch has nothing at all to do with EQ. You could think of changing pitch simply as going from C to D. It's basically the same thing. And you can't make that change with EQ it's the wrong tool....


EQ: Higher and Lower? in the frequency range YES, but not in PITCH (two different things). That's the answer.....

Let me quote something for you:

"Most attributes of equalization are pretty intuitive and well understood by musicians, producers and beginning recordists. The most confusing issues have to do with the frequency of musical spectra vs. frequency of pitch (they aren't the same)." Dave Molton-

That is what you are doing....

----------------------------------------------


Yes I'm a professional film composer. Although, I chose to work on projects that meet my minimum requirement. Meaning I'm not in the position to do no budget films for free. Other than that I'm open to all inquires.

Below is a pic of my work space and below that some links to my music:







•MUSIC•

Turning Point

Bling

Honor Thy Family

Narcotic

Tokyo Warehouse

Field

*obviously these links are for listening only, I'm not hereby granting anyone permission to use my music* (just say'n)

Jay

ah, i remember seeing that picture.

are those pieces you posted just shortened versions? or you do longer stuff?

do you do more traditional stuff as well? i'm asking because recently i've really been interested in using editing techniques in both music and film together, so you build both up instead of leaving the sound for later, or splicing it up to make it fit. or having the visuals work for a piece of music in particular.

i think it'd be more interesting if they both worked along together.

and yes i know about paying. i have to start paying a lot soon for services, but right now i'm just asking to see what people can do. get my bearings, sort to speak.

Those pieces are full length cues....

Generally, most cues for film fall between 1:30 and 5:00 in "features" (obviously you aren't going to have a 10 min cue in a short). About the longest cue you'll consistently find is about 7 min (but that's rare). Epics sometimes foll into the 10 min range, but for most feature films it's usually between 1:30 and 5:00. With most of the cues coming in below 3:30, (my cues are all between 1:30 and 5:00 -- so those lengths are pretty standard in the feature film world).

Shorts would typically be around 1:00 to 2:30 in length, not much longer than that....



Traditional as in orchestral (I'll assume)? Yeah, there's one in there that is 100% orchestral "Honor Thy Family". If you mean do I write stuff that's light and twinkly or in the vein John Williams, in that case the answer would be 'no not usually'. I'm more along the lines of a Cliff Martinez, John Powell etc. Most indie films can't support a HUGE orchestral score, it usually doesn't fit the image or the budget. So most are hybrid in nature, or very sparse, like chamber etc.. But I will basically do whatever the film calls for. Most of the stuff I do now falls in the dark indie vein, those are the jobs I'm going up for presently. Producers and directors that deal mostly in the darker / weird / quirky vein... (think Spun , Donny Darko, Requiem,
Buffalo '66, etc. those types)

You doing a feature or a short? What type of score do you see for your film anyway... out of curiosity.


But I never rule out anything... if it's a good gig job and I know the film has backing I'll demo for the job in whatever style if I want it bad enough.


The way it's usually done, though, is to start the music after the film is well on it's way to being done edited. The composer can match the "hits" no problem (if they know what they're doing). You just tell the composer what to hit, and they'll hit it, down to the "frame" (that's what all the gear's for ). But "splicing /
editing" music is the way of big budget films too, it's just what happens sometimes (many times). Many newer directors want to get the music first (maybe it's because they aren't used to working with composers?), which is really counter productive to all involved. The reasoning is really too involved for me to type in one post, but basically for the composer it would mean doing music that they aren't even sure will be utilized (and composing is hard enough as is) especially if there are no spotting notes. It would mean changing cues more times than necessary.

Imagine being a composer and not sleeping for 4-5 days to finish a cue (on time) only to have the director say "you know what, I'm gonna re-edit that whole 7 min scene". Now none of your 7 minutes of music fits and you have to start over (assuming that the director already "ok'd' the music in the first place). Now imagine that happening with every scene in the film. That is a real possibility when working with a newer director that may have a hard time making up their mind as to what is working. It can easily turn into a real mess under those conditions. That is what the composer is trying to avoid. That's why most paid composers won't work on something unless it's locked or real close to it. Otherwise there is just too many
opportunity's for the whole thing to go south. And especially so if you aren't getting paid good money...

Depending on the composer, some aren't willing to risk going through that (typically the paid guys).... and some will do it just for the experience. Not me...


But yes, there are plenty of composers out there that can nail the scenes in whatever style it is that you're looking for... obviously the paid guys (most likely) will do a better job and have better tools. You can rest
assured that most will hit the marks no problem. That's where trust is involved.... you gotta trust that someone will be able to score to what you've edited and make it work. Obviously minor changes are a given, composers just don't want to deal with major changes that are constant throughout....



Jay

wow...... that was long

very informative and actually not at all boring though

thanks - i'm sure some of that will be useful for me at some point in this life or another

cheers

"well EQ can change our percieved pitch, they use it on voices all the time to change pitch."

As Jay pointed out, not quite. Perceived pitch change due to EQ is very small. You're not going to be able to change a girl's voice to a middle-aged man simply by rolling off the high end and boosting the low end. I would suspect that titanium doughnut intends to greatly lower the pitch of a voice without slowing it down too much, either for an "evil" voice or a shot in slow motion.

Correct Evan! It is indeed for an evil voice - an extremly corny one. and the amazing slow downer has been working perfectly!

Well it seems this problem has already been solved but way back when Roxio had a sound pitch changer that actually worked, but now with their upgraded software it no longer exists... I think.