If I offend you. I don't mean to. I'm just fascinated by some of the statements the made regarding the murderer at Virginia Tech. We can't ignore something of this magnitude.

The Media is flooded with opinions- Blaming the university- blaming his teachers- saying that there were signs pointing to his mental breakdown in his screenplays. I don't know how many of you have been in a screenwriting class, but I can guarantee you that if disturbing stories were a basis of committing people Half of hollywood and nearly a third of all screenwriting students may be committed.

If you read the plays they aren't bad at all-- I mean that everything everyone said about how horrible they were and that the plays were something out of a nightmare and they
alone should have got the kid arrested was hype. It was just talk that the media and attention hungry former classmates wanted to push as justification for his actions and give themselves importance. Any beginning playwriting
class has stories that are just as dark and
foul. Dark stories get produced all the time, because they represent a side of humanity (or insanity) that people are uncomfortable with.

My plays are pretty dark too. Not as much foul language, but dark just the same. Look at Edgar Allen Poe, look at the guy who wrote Memento or Mulholland Drive. People might say that they were disturbed too.

If you read his plays you'll see what I mean. My thought that sparked this was about how someone could look at a person's artistic expression and decide whether or not they're sane. The kid's behavior was a tell-tale sign he had issues not
his writing. The fact that he never spoke was a sign he had issues. His writing was just writing. That's ridiculous.

My characters have a habit of choosing death for the sake of others or their personal sanity. Does that mean I am suicidal?

Every artistic endeavor writing, acting, painting, etc has 1 part truth (Or
you would never be able to master the piece, part, character) and 5 parts
make believe.

I just thought you guys might be interested to read the plays-- which I didn't think were no talent- they lacked finesse and tried
to hard to get a rise out of the reader/listener. They might have even been
decent stories if he had learned to temper the anger. But that's what made him insane-- he didn't know how to control the anger in his art or in his life.

The ideas weren't terrible. He used some commonplace items creatively. But it didn't denote the fact he was a sicko unless you only evaluated it in hindsight.

I'm not at all defending this guy or his work-- more than anything else I'm defending the english intructors who didn't do anything, because how can you really know that the make believe inside someone's head is real to them?

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/2#comments

Before you wonder where I found these... some guy on myspace posted them.

Oh yeah, the plays are being totally misrepresented.

I mean, they are the WORST scripts I've EVER read, but they're no indication of his mental condition. I've seen far, far more disturbing scripts in every screenwriting class I've been in. I'm just glad he was a crappy writer. Somehow, that gives me satisfaction.

lol-

I've seen some pretty terrible plays in my lifetime-- so his don't even get THAT honor.
Ireally pissed someone off by sending this rant as an email to them. So I was a little afraid to post it.

The scripts were absolutely brutal, I agree. And usually disturbed people are terrible writers (anyone ever try to read Mein Kampf? Or the papeers of the Columbine guys)... which kind of makes me think that in order to write sick themes you should have the talent to write them well, otherwise you truly are just being sick for sick's sake. Someone with talent, when they explore a dark theme, has the respect of leaving things in the shadows a little bit - if you don't it seems you are just disrespecting the evil and power of those dark themes.. and I think this is where we're able to draw the line between art and perversion.

Seriously...this is someones big break right here! The first person to film these scripts will have network deals. CBS Specials, whatever. Or maybe its to touchy of a subject at the moment...But the point is SOMEONE is going to film these and get a LOT of attention.

quote:

Originally posted by Cho Seung Hui

SUE
Are you a bisexual psycho rapist murderer! Please stop following me. Don't kill me!
(she throws wrenches)
RICHARD
I didnt even do anything Okay. Ill stop following you. Let me explain! John is a rambunctious pubescent boy!

SUE
Oh my god! Your are a pedophile

RICHARD
No! No...honey-poo

SUE
Honey-poo?

Just think...this scene is going to make someone very famous.

Good post. I was a little worried about all that hype going around myself. But it's understandable I guess. When a tragedy of this magnitude happens, people just want someone to blame. It makes them feel better. Not to defend the reactions, but it's just human nature.

braininabox, you're right. If someone shoots that (verbatim - grammatical errors and all) and puts it on youtube the world will go nuts.

Whew I was a bit worried, because everyone at school was talking about how disturbing they were, and I didn't really find them all that bad. Just incredibly stupid, and terribly written. My question is how the hell was this guy an english major?

I heard he was a business major who had just recently switched over to English. People who dormed with him still thought he was a business major.

Haha. I know. Now I'm suddenly going to be suspicious of all the morons who can't write that I encounter from time to time. Is poor writing ability correlated with homicidal tendencies? Does one cause the other? Does a third variable cause both? Quick! Someone find his SAT scores.

I guess I can rest assured that I'm not really sick, since I'm a pretty decent writer.

Nonetheless, another thing that the Vtech and Columbine shooters had in common was how badly they were harassed by fellow students from junior high on. I think its important that we all take notice on how we treat other people. Again this doesn't condone their actions. Its a question of how much can a person take before being pushed to their breaking point?

In my undergrad I knew students who we all regarded like Cho. I made an attempt to be kind-- even if it was against my instincts-- and of course provided I was in a "safe" environment (IE not alone with them etc).

Somewhere inside me I feel really bad for the gunman-- almost as much as I feel for the victims. Because how much pain must you be in inside to do something like that?

Another interesting fact I heard-- After the first shooting, Cho called in a bomb threat to the classrooom building he would shoot at next. Why would he do that? Did he want to be stopped? Did he want to be heard? And why didn't the school empty the damned building? they had two hours between him making that call and chaining the doors to that building.

To me that phone call and the posting on the internet the night before was a warning. Not in a malicious way, but more in a "I know I'm going nuts, please leave while you can." but no one listened. How sad is that?

quote:

Originally posted by titaniumdoughnut:
Haha. I know. Now I'm suddenly going to be suspicious of all the morons who can't write that I encounter from time to time. Is poor writing ability correlated with homicidal tendencies? Does one cause the other? Does a third variable cause both? Quick! Someone find his SAT scores.

No No No No No. I think many of you are underestimating the writing as a reflection of his thoughts... not just as something people write in a writing class.

That writing is correlated to the guy's mental state... showing that he does have issues. Just look at the dialogue... especially by the middle of the script where he repeatedly talks about killing, abuse, and other stuff. It has nothing to do with poor writing and everything to do with its content.

But is his writing a direct result of homicidal behavior? Of course not as Winterreverie already mentions in her post. But it is a sign pointing in that direction because people write what they know regardless of the genre. I definitely disagree that writing is just writing... especially when art is depended on feeling, intuition and the artist's likes and dislikes. Just reading that dialogue is disturbing and I definitely would be freaked out if someone like him were in my class.

It's like a 5 year old kid who draws a picture of her family... showing her most of the family together holding hands, or whatever, being happy, and then the father on the opposite side of the page. That kid probably has some issues with the father figure... does that suggest abuse or something else? Maybe. But to say that is just a drawing is pretty naive in my opinion. It's definitely correlated, but not cause and effect... if that makes sense.

A teacher (being observant of their students) in a writing class would definitely be able to suspect something wrong with a student when so much of their work is in writing.

btw I'm not offended if that seems to be the tone of this post... just strongly disagree.

I hear what your saying, But--

In the same token, should the government Lock up, evaluate, etc every person who ever wrote a horror or killing film?

Scream? Psycho? Falling Down? Silence of the lambs? Saw? Hannibal? Deathtrap? American Psycho? etc...

The list goes on and on.

If that is the case, then anyone who sees a violent movie is also verging on mentally insane.

many people use art as an outlet-- and they may have morbid thoughts-- but who has ever had a morbid thought? Who has never got so angry that they said or thought something awful? It doesn't mean that they would necessarily act on them.

Your point is absolutely valid in regards to young kids-- those who haven't been exposed to mass media or even classic literature. Your argument leaves no room for imagination.

BTW my screen writing application for Chapman was about o woman who was systematically killing off members of her family so she could see a certain relative at the funerals. What do you suppose that says about me?

I disagree. In hindsight, yes those scripts are indicative of his state of mind, but without the benefit of hindsight, it's impossible to say if a piece of artwork with disturbing content means anything or not. I've seen dozens and dozens of deeply disturbing, violent student films. None of those people have murdered anyone yet. What do we do? Lock them all up? No one knows if they're just exploring the potential for violence in film, or if they're truly demented.

If you read my notes with the same philosophy that leads you to say we could have been sure about this guy, you would want a small army to go catch me right away. I've got way weirder, more disturbing stuff thrown in there. Mine is all logically and creatively thought through, with attention given to its impact on an audience, how it would work in a story, etc, and I'm the most stable and well-adjusted person you can imagine - but it's still there.

We can't look at his writing and make the call as to whether or not this person is:

a) a bad writer, who is writing the disturbing thoughts that come into his head without a care in the world for art

b) a bad writer, who is trying to make art and is just really inelegant about putting his ideas into words

In retrospect, yes, it's obvious, but before he snapped, you just can't make that call based on writing alone. Yeah, they said he was really weird, and students were afraid of him, and one interviewed even worried he would shoot people in the writing class one day, but you can't use the writing as proof of anything.

agreed

Yeah I agree too...and I also think that though his writing did reflect what was going on in his head (as we know now), they couldn't have just convicted him for having disturbing thoughts, because if that was a crime then we would all be criminals (Or most of us, anyways).

I think that the combination of strange behavior and creepy writing was what really showed that he was disturbed, not just the writing. Besides, a couple of his professors did notice his strange writing, and they did what they could do...

And no offense Kurt, but there are always people who believe that they could have and should have done something, but they say that after every disaster, every attack...because if it isn't someone's fault then why did it happen, right?

Originally posted by Winterreverie:

quote:

Nonetheless, another thing that the Vtech and Columbine shooters had in common was how badly they were harassed by fellow students from junior high on. I think its important that we all take notice on how we treat other people. Again this doesn't condone their actions. Its a question of how much can a person take before being pushed to their breaking point?

I totally agree with that statement...This is just another example of why you should be nice to the "outcasts." There's one kid at my school who is, well, strange: and of course by strange I mean different from everyone else, but I'm trying to be nicer, and I think everyone should too. (And just so you know I'm definately not saying what Cho or the Columbine kids or any mass murderer did was right, but perhaps there really was a reason behind it all)...

Actually the Cho kid wasn't harassed really as a child or in college. People tried to people nice to him apparently, but he wouldn't talk to anyone. He was ****ed up one way or the other, and being polite to him sure wasn't going to solve his problems.

Not according to people who went to elementary, junior high school and high school with him. They say he was shoved and publicly ridiculed and told to "go back to China" when he tried to speak. So he just stopped speaking.

quote:

Originally posted by Winterreverie:
They say he was shoved and publicly ridiculed and told to "go back to China" when he tried to speak. So he just stopped speaking.

Who are you quoting on that? Every time he tried to speak he was told to go back to China? Forgive me if I'm skeptical of the validity of that. He was mentally deranged, and its unfair that he is being blamed for what happened. I hate to say this because it sounds so ridiculous, but I believe he was just another product of the society we have become; and this massacre should be evidence of that. The fact that no one realizes it, means it will only happen more and more often. Mental insanity + f*cked up culture = mass murder.

Oops, My fault for not being clear the first time around. In a rush to leave my house, I skimmed through winterreverie’s initial post and missed a few key sentences which essentially lead me to believe that the gist of her post was “writing is just writing.” After re-reading the post and realizing that you are not disregarding the student’s behaviors, I'd like to clarify what exactly I was trying to say…

Of course we can’t lock up and evaluate people for having disturbing thoughts, and normal people already know this.

My whole point was simply that what Cho expressed in writing was in fact correlated to his mental state. Whether or not that’s only revealed through hindsight is what I disagree with. Why? Because since art is an expression of our thoughts and feelings, regardless of its medium- writing, photography, film, sculpting, whatever – it's still an expression of that individual’s mindset. The people write horror films (such as Scream, Psycho and everything thing else you might mention on the list), these writers are simply expressing their morbid thoughts in a medium that can be hared with others… Just as you expressed your thoughts in your Chapman application… I did something similar in my NYU application. I definitely know that I’m not crazy or mentally unstable… but those thoughts and feelings were mine nonetheless.

Going back to the “writing is writing” and a drawing being just a drawing was basically what I was disagreeing with. Writing, drawing, or whatever form, is an expression of the thoughts we carry… even if it is in our imagination, it's a reflection of our thinking at that time. It’s only a problem when people can’t distinguish between right and wrong, translating their thoughts into actions as Cho did in the massacre.

Besides, the writings are only one factor that reflects his mental instability. His behaviors are another (and more important factor than his writings) and I’m sure that too had just as much to do with the teacher’s recommendation of counseling.

Whether or not the media is blowing his screenplay writing out of proportion, I don’t really have a strong opinion of that. From what I’ve heard, they’ve also mentioned the weird behaviors as well. And the whole thing is still being investigated with. What I felt strongly about was that people write what they know… the themes and ideas they express in their work. How that affects us in finding other disturbed individuals will always be debated because of society’s sensitivity to people’s rights and how it affects our own… and where to draw the line between offending weird people and protecting ourselves. And this is besides the point because in a way it has nothing to do with the writings itself… but at the same time, still does.

KW