Chris,

You are now just beating a dead horse. I have had intelligent discussions with both you and Zack now, and if you are looking for an apology to end this ridiculous epic, you've got it. In regards to hearing my compositions, I write and play jazz, not film soundtracks. This does not stop me from having a critical ear of Zack's work which I will no longer criticize because neither of you can deal with it. Using our personal conversations and the fact that I expressed more respect for the work of Clint Mansell than your friend is kind of low of you. Finally, its not about how many computer generated soundtracks to films and video games I can send you, because when we get down to the bare bones of composition, music history and music theory, I probably know more than you. Peace out, brosef.

-Ben

Dear Ben,

I'm confused...
First you say:

quote:

My comment was not intended to belittle the talents and abilities of people like Danny or Zack who MUST use midi files to display their original compositions

But then I guess you must have changed your mind:

quote:

The fact of the matter was that your music was just so lacking any true melodic or harmonic progression, change in dynamics, or creativity for that matter

Let's take the same example Chris mentioned earlier:
http://zackparrish.com/dead/CirqueDuMort.mp3

Creativity is the most subjective issue here, but I'll simplify and say: he's created something, which I had not heard before (unlike the development throughout the piece, which I have heard before). Hence, the man is creative.
Now, you mention on a later post that you ar a Jazz composer and performer, and I'm thinking this might be limiting (or at least biasing) the scope of your analysis.

I honestly don't know what you mean by "true" melodic or harmonic progression, since I've never heard of "false" harmonic progressions, and while it can be a synonym for development, I've never seen the phrase "melodic progression" on any theory book. Though I guess it could be used to refer to the harmonic implications of a melody.

Zach's piece features a melodic motif. By the stylistic nature of the piece, this motif is developed gradually. You see, as opposed to standard Jazz forms, in traditional composition (a very broad description of the techniques used on Zach's piece) extended forms are more widely used. Which is why you see motifs developing slower (and/or coming back in their original form) on your average concerto than any of the tunes in Real Books.

When talking about harmonic progression, the piece clearly has more than one chord, and the chords in it are functional to each other, and to each of the tonal centers. Unlike a lot of the Jazz standard progressions, this piece does not move around the circle of fifths all the time. And this may be the reason why you're having trouble following the harmony.

However, the Change of Dynamics comment makes me wonder if you're even going to understand all of the above. If I were to transcribe the piece, I would at the very least use 4-5 dynamic markings, along with some crescendos and decrescendos. I dare say that anyone who knows what dynamics mean in music (essentially, volume... for the rest of you) can recognize changes in that department. And there is no stylistic justification for not being able to hear this.

And if you can't recognize motivic development, a progression, or dynamic changes when sitting at a computer... how can you react spontaneously to those changes when they occur in Jazz improvisation?

quote:

This does not stop me from having a critical ear of Zack's work which I will no longer criticize because neither of you can deal with it

I realize you were not talking about me, but... since I CAN deal with it, here you go. Deal with it.

quote:

when we get down to the bare bones of composition, music history and music theory, I probably know more than you

I seriously doubt it.

E.

I have no time or energy left to fight this. Zack is the greatest composer since Stravinsky.

One question for EDM....why do you assume that my work revolves around the realm of straight ahead jazz....

"Unlike a lot of the Jazz standard progressions, this piece does not move around the circle of fifths all the time."

Jazz abandoned the circle of fifths a long time ago. Though some contemporary innovators in jazz such as Joshua Redman, Charlie Hunter and Don Byron embrace earlier traditions, typical chord progressions have been abandoned by most composers through out the later period of hard bop, modal jazz and fusion.

Lastly, I have been criticized for this "change in dynamics" comment for than anything else. I was not talking about dynamics in volume, but rather a change in the over all energy or pace of Zack's work.

Sorry to intrude in the little hissy fit that you guys are having, but I'm trying to offer my services to the client who started this thread.

But, if you guys want to keep fighting, then go ahead...

I won't stop you...

quote:

One question for EDM....why do you assume that my work revolves around the realm of straight ahead jazz....

Oh... I thought this thread was all about making assumptions of the worst possible scenario and criticising from there... my bad.
Seriously though... I wasn't assuming anything, I just said it was a possibility, which is why I said "This may be the reason...", as opposed to "This is the reason...".

quote:

typical chord progressions have been abandoned by most composers through out the later period of hard bop, modal jazz and fusion

I agree that Jazz has evolved as a style beyond the standard progressions I was talking about. You forgot to mention Avant-Garde, Free Jazz (though the terms are used alternatively to talk about the same artists/albums), and some of the Cool Albums, particularly those featuring the work of Gil Evans. And yet, I disagree that this is the rule for "most composers", when is rather a valuable exception, specially in the mainstream Jazz/Fusion most people are exposed to (see Jones, Norah; Krall, Diana; Cullum, Jamie.. etc.). And yes, we could argue for hours whether these are true Jazz artists or not.

Lastly, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about pace upon listening to music made for film (or TV, for that matter) without looking at it in the context it was written to fit. Some scenes will allow for more natural (or original, or creative) pacing and development, some will not.

Peace,

E.

Out of respect for the filmmaker who started this thread, I will continue this discussion on a separate topic or through private messages, if you really want to.

Ok, you guys are arguing semantics now. Just agree to disagree or whatever, it's getting pointless.

And Lee, you've pitched your work, there's no need to jump into the fray just because no one made any appearance of having immediately noticed. If the client is still following this thread you'll be considered. It might be a good idea to send an email though, as things have become a bit jumbled in here.

E makes good points, and yes I would love to continue this conversation with E, but only E.

-Ben

Drama, drama, drama... get enough of that at work.

Email me at freeeaglewarrior@gmail.com if you have any interest. And stop your arguing, it gets everybody nowhere.