I think it is really great that there are so many composers willing to work for cheap/free for student films.

But, I'm also a little cautious because I know that to compose, you need talent, experience, and very expensive equipment. I really respect what composers do. And while you will gain experience and exposure, if done properly, your work will go virtually unnoticed by the audience.

So, why are composers so interested in working for student films where there is very little/no money? And what kind of contract are you composers using? ASCAP? Are you giving full sync rights or just edu/festival rights? What do you expect from the "back end?" (no laughing, now) I know composers can't give blanket quotes because each job is very different, but I'm curious just what kind of compensation is expected.

Thank you for your responses.
joren

Im not a composer, but this is just my thoughts on the subject.
I think they do it for the same reason actors will work for free. Its experience, and its something to put on a resume. You have to start somewhere, and its good practice. Scoring, is like film making. Practice makes perfect, and you learn by doing. When your scoring for film, you have to have a film to score to. Might seem stupid, but I think, its that simple. Maybe its just me.
R. Michael

And you shall know us by the trail of dead.

I do it for the ladies.

Ok, here we go:

So, why are composers so interested in working for student films where there is very little/no money?

For me personally, I love to do it. I have acually done a couple without credit. The main reason for alot of composers though is that no one will hire you to score something if you don't have some sort of experience, so short indie films is the "bridge" that you have to pass before you can get that big budget film (which few will ever reach).

And what kind of contract are you composers using? ASCAP?

I am a member of BMI. All these companys just collect royalties for the performance of your music, which (if the contract with the producers of the film need it) can be bypassed and go back to the film maker (but this usually happens if a composer is paid for the work).

Are you giving full sync rights or just edu/festival rights?

Again, it depends on the composer. For me, I would have no problems for giving the film makers the right to use the music in any performance of thier film, but I would hold the rights for any kind of distribution of it (or placement in other films for that matter).

What do you expect from the "back end?"

Just the opportunity do do the score is great for me. To have the chance to take the emotion in a film even higher is an awesome thing that I never get tired of. Any film that a composer scores also adds to his/her resume, and gets his/her name pushed further into the minds of other directors that might ask them to do a score.

On a side note, the music can come out and be heard, and it can be beautiful if done correctly. Now the question that you have to ask yourself as a film maker is "What kind of composer do I need?".

I hope this helps, and if I am wrong about something or if another composer has a different opinion, please post it.

James W.G. Smith

[This message was edited by James W.G. Smith on March 11, 2003 at 10:58 PM.]

What I will add is.... From my pespective.

I might suggest, Joren, that you watch some of your favorite films but this time focus on the score. Actually try to hear what it'd sound like with no music. Guess what, the emotion is all but gone. The music is quite often the "emotion not spoken". Most composers don't care that the audience doesn't notice the music, because the composer ---as well as the director and everyone else involved in the film "DO"--- understand the emotional impact the music has made on the audience (even if they don't realize it).......


Music:

You get what you "PAY" for... No but seriously, at some point young directors need to start considering music into the total budget of their flick. Around 10% of the total budget should be s pent on sound. It's amazing what a little compression and dialogue editing will do to polish up an otherwise unintelligible film (ok that's not composing but needless to say "SOUND" is extremely important, for a professional presentation of your film). Believe it or not "BAD SOUND" is probably the biggest complaint viewers have.

Back to 'Getting Paid'..... the bottom line is; a composer will absolutely do a better job if they are getting paid (that is the honest truth). I mean who wants to spend weeks and weeks on something for free (not me ------- there has to be something in it for the composer too). More times than not you will get 'OK' music for free, but nothing fantastic (a composer doesn't want their name attached to crap) but they will go above a nd beyond if they are treated 'fairly' (i.e. paid.... rule of thumb, always offer something... as a way of saying I value what you are doing for me). My studio cost me around $60,000 (and counting), I am continually investing in new equipment for the sole purpose of a better product for the director. But this also means that I personally can't afford to do endless student films for free... It's not worth my while (although I "would" do something for free if I could see huge potential in the film)


Three reasons a composer should take a job (in this order)

1. You are getting paid
2. You are learning something invaluable
3. You are in love with the project

Otherwise it's probably a waste of time..... (directors this is what's true for us "the co mposers".... unless composing is a persons hobby then I guess who cares (but the music is not gonna be the same quality as someone who has invested blood, sweat, and tears)


Back end? There's really no back end on "shorts" (animation perhaps), do you give your actors first dollar gross? [just joking ] ;-). So that wouldn't be something I personally would count on. Deals? For shorts the deals are very simple licensing deals no-need for all the nonsense unless it's something very specific. Basically the music gets used for "the one" film and that's it....


What am "I" doing hear? I'm looking for the next "someone". Yes a composer is nothing without a "great director" with a "great project". What it basically boils down to is; a composer could be amazing, but if he/she is doing projects that suck-ass, no-one cares how good the music is. On the other hand, if this same composer does the "right" job (meaning composing for a film that gets critical acclaim) suddenly the composer is as hot as this new director. Then both of their prices go up, way up....


Film makers (especially younger ones) need to realize the importance "a good" composer plays in their films, it's a very trusting relationship. If you look at any of the 'working' directors they all have their "go to guys". A lot of directors work with the same people over and over, the reason is "TRUST". They know this composer is intuitive to what they (the director) needs and wants. They know they can count on this person to deliver the goods on time and with the directors vision.... less stressing about the music.


Ok, back to why am 'I' doing this. I'm trying to find great film makers that are "under the radar", get in early so to speak. By the time someone has done a few features they are pretty set on who they want to work with. So I'm here looking for people that are dead serious about making a living at this, not hobbyists. Looking for young dudes that have "IT", and hopefully they'd want to work with me as well. What do I offer? Good music first of all, but like my listing says (and this is probably waaaaaay more beneficial than good music.. at least it would be to me if I was trying to "get in") my wife is an agent at the biggest talent agency in the world. I mean really anyone working with me gets an opportunity that is extremely, extremely hard to come by (as I'm sure you know). Obviously if I did the music my wife would view the film, and obviously if the film was amazing then the director would get signed.... then I do the music for the feature and get paid for real (us composers are making an investment in "you directors"... hoping it pays off, as well as nurture an on going relationship that would (hopefully) bring many, many more great films (and oh yeah, money etc.... don't act like you don't wanna get paid millions to make films)


That's why I'm here...... I do music because I've always done music and I love it (this is my day job... but until we ---the compoer--- land a huge deal we're always looking! What is better than a perfect film with the perfect music?????? EXACTLY RIGHT! Getting paid lots of money to make a perfect film.


Anyway that is my situation.....


Jay...

[This message was edited by jay888 on March 12, 2003 at 02:10 AM.]

The future of Americas films has to come from somewhere. And well, i know personally that i am looking into being a Director in the future, and just recently i used Jay's music and Stuart's music in a 21 minute movie that was completed 2 weeks ago.

If one day I make it big, or i continue to make short movies in the very near future (we are in the beginning process of 1 right now) i will always consider Jay and Staurt's music because i know its good. And In the future if i work on a large budget film, i will give the composers i have used or worked with in the past a call and tell the the current situation and they will be happy because there will be money involved . So that is another good reason that comes along with allowing rights to music for student films.

Because we are the future of Americas Films

RP

So, why are composers so interested in working for student films where there is very little/no money?

It's been said but I'll second it...practice makes perfect. And we need the material for our demos.

And what kind of contract are you composers using? ASCAP? Are you giving full sync rights or just edu/festival rights?

My contract usually gives the rights for a single picture but nothing else. And (if I'm doing it gratis) I keep the rights so I can use the idea again if I want to. I'm a member of ASCAP.

What do you expect from the "back end?"

I've had filmmakers give me points on anything they make from a film though the likelyhood of that happening if pretty low. On a handshake basis I just ask that if they like the music for this project then they can return the favor by hiring me when they get a project with a budget.