Alright, pretend I have a $200,000 cap to spend on a new HD system. I need to know what I'll need to shoot and edit a movie in HD. I'm planning for the festival circuit so I want to avoid SD if at all possible. You could say I could shoot in 16mm, but I ain't having any of that. Shooting on 16mm would require a lot more research and people than I'm willing to take in.
I've been reading up a bit on hdforindies.com but he's very Mac oriented and I'd prefer to work on my (as for now) top of the line PC that will be just as good in another (apporoximate start time of production) year with inexepensive upgrades.
I want to know what kind of decks, software, wires, cards, monitors, etc. I'm going to need to produce a quality movie. In the years time before actual production of this movie occurs, I will be working towards accumulating all of the necessary gear for an HD production. I just need to have an idea of what that just might entail.

elliott...

I think avid has some good stuff for hd editing when i was looking, but of coarse it was expensive.

on a side note i was reading an interesting topic on the http://www.cinematography.com message boards about this new foreign hd camera, looks pretty cool but i dont know if id trust them.
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=6125
the first post has a link to they're website, it has picture of the camera and it has clips of the footage. but i think you should also check out the other topics in the hd section.

Avid's HD editing is cheap if you shoot DVCPROHD.

Xpress Pro HD will capture DCVPROHD natively over firewire without any capture cards.

Xpress Pro HD is probably the same cost as Xpress Pro which the student rate is $299.

The expensive part with HD is monitoring and the online.

(expensive HD monitors and mastering to a mastering format)

Of course you could cut your entire film on Xpress Pro HD and then bring your media or project to an Avid Symphony HD or an Avid DS Nitris HD and the online would be painlessly fast (thus cheaper).

Or you could output your finished film back to DVCPRO HD over firewire and then to a tape to tape color correction to a mastering format such as D2.

-Chris
Studentfilms.com

ktabes- Thanks for that interesting read. Those were some nice articles.

Chris- Ha, I should've guessed that you would pimp out Avid before anything else. But, I don't know enough about the Avid systems to know why one should bother doing an offline edit on Xpress Pro HD if you have either Symphony HD or DS Nitris HD. Could you help me out with that?

Avid's sounding pretty nice so far. I wouldn't mind throwing down some dough for software if it possibly saves me some money on the hardware end. Really I'm just hoping to be able to shoot and edit, with minimal computer upgrades, at 1080p 4:4:4 12bit, and even though that doesn't look too plausible on a tight budget at the moment, the more I read the more it sounds like it will be a year from now.

elliott...

i think you're misleading yourself thinking that HD will require or use less people than any kind of film. you will need just as many people as if you were shooting film, and maybe more if you need any engineers to help you out with customizing your equipment.


anyway, why buy everything? even production companies just rent time in a post house to do all their mastering, what do you need decks and everything else for?

just transfer the HD footage to DVCam with the footage timecode and use your editing program at home to edit it, then rent some time at a post production facility and make the master yourself, or ask them to make the master for you based on the timeline.

then you can do your sound, and have it transferred to BETA or whatever the film festival wants it on.

spending all that money on equipment that isn't going to make a return and get old as soon as you bit it just seems like a waste, when you can always rent time on the newest equipment and it will cost you less in the long run, unless you're doing lots of projects.

You're right, I wasn't completely clear when I said, "I'll need less people." I don't plan on skimping on the crew end. As far as post goes, though, I really do believe I'd be bypassing quite a few people, such as film processing and the initial telecine. Capturing the HD doesn't seem to take anymore know-how than MiniDV, just equipment. I'm really against renting equipment when the formula is typically something like:
rent high-end >= own medium-end;
rent medium-end >= own low-end;
rent low-end = own low-end.
I have a couple of other qualms about renting, but, as you mentioned, I would be using the camera for a lot of projects very soon thereafter.
You might be on to something about the post house. But, I feel that they're kind of like renting in the sense of, if all transfer and mastering is going to cost anywhere as much as a decent home system, why not get the home system so I'm not constantly paying that price. Sure, the guys at a post are going to be more professional than me, but I don't honestly believe that they have too many more skills that I currently have or can learn on my own. Honestly, I believe they really just have on-hand equipment and software more than anything else. On the other hand, if the pricing is truly competitive, I'd look into them.
Although, I am hoping to get a mastered 35mm print and that's the only time I actually want to deal with any post house of any kind.

elliott...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MeGrimlock,

If the equipment is not going to earn back 100% of its cost within 6 months, don't buy it. Rent instead. It's a much more efficient and realistic method in the long run. Especially with HD, where the technology is evolving so rapidly - with 16mm I can understand some of the allure of the gear, but spending thousands on an HD deck and gear that will be worth literally $200 a few years down the line seems utterly ridiculous.

Furthermore, why aren't you considering 16mm? If you think you can get away with shooting a feature on HD with decent quality for less than 16mm, you're deluding yourself. Quality HD production involves just as much work and expense (lighting, sets/locations, actors, sound, etc) as a quality 16mm production.

I'm not getting into film simply because I don't know enough about it. The things I have learned about it though are some of its expenses. I was checking out the $6000 Ikonoskop 16mm camera that someone had posted about on the board previously and was checking out the site's sample DVD. I really wasn't impressed with it. Even if they used cheap film stock and processing, it's really not so cheap in comparison to video. Also, for a first feature, I'd prefer a higher shooting ratio than film has to offer (8:1 or so as opposed to 2:1 or so.) In the following year I truly believe I can study and read up on all there is to need to know about HD, I can't say the same for film.

elliott...

The A-Cam? That's a fairly specialized product. Anyway, you can rent a very nice Arri for $3500 or so for long enough to shoot a feature if you work fast. You can obviously have a higher shooting ratio with film also, but it will cost more The question at that point is really whether that kind of a ratio is necessary. 4:1 should be plenty when you're working on a budget. Most of my projects are 2:1 or 3:1.

HD is not very different than film in terms of composition and lighting... trust me, a year is definitely not enough time to master composition and lighting. It takes more than a lifetime. If you're strictly referring to the technical aspects, that would probably take less than a month. Is it really worth it, considering that a year from now the HD workflow will be significantly different? The last major innovation in 16mm production was the rise of Super 16. The lenses and mechanisms are virtually the same now as 40 years ago.

I guess I'm not being as specific in my posts as I should be. I know you can have a high shooting ratio on film with a budget, I just meant with my budget, I wouldn't be allowed one. Also, I was talking purely about the technical aspect of film. I'm confident enough in my own artistic ability, what kind of "artist" would I be if I wasn't?
Regarding technologocial upgrades in HD, I'm not too worried, out of anything electronic that I've purchased(which has always been more than I could afford at that time,) I've made the most out of it and have got my money's worth.
You shoot on 8mm Evan, what are your film and processing expenses? (I've heard what you do for telecine so at least you save a buck there.) Also, how long does $3,500 rent you an Arri for? I honestly have not got that far into pre-production to get a better idea, but, I'm planning on a thirty day shoot for now.
In the end I'm mostly concerned with the final product transferred onto 35mm. I know how miniDV looks blown up that big (I believe I've seen better results honestly with digitial projection in that case,) and I don't approve. I am very satisfied, though, with how HD looks blown up to that size. And so far, no one's convinced me that 16mm would actually be a cheaper, easier, or even more convenient alternative to HD. If this movie was going to straight to DVD, or digital projection only, I'd be happy to just go with miniDV and circumvent a lot of this hassle.

elliott...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MeGrimlock,

Super 8 film is around $9-10/50'. Processing ranges from $5-10 for 50'. I'm moving to 16mm fairly soon (not S16, standard). Rates for rentals vary, but $3500 should get you the camera for at least 2 weeks, maybe more.

A 30 day shoot? That's pretty excessive if your budget is really that tight... FWIW miniDV can look OK blown up to 35mm. Not great, but not awful. '9 Songs' was shot in standard miniDV, projected on a wall, and re-shot on film (35mm? 16mm? not sure). The finished product looks basically the same as if it had originated on film. That might be an interesting way to go, since you likely already have a miniDV camera or two and film/rental costs would be minimal since you'd only film the finished cut.

Exactly what project is this that you have 200K to work with and are considering a 35mm blowup?

If you really have that much money, you should rent the 16mm gear and hire a competent DP.