Well, it's that time again. Michael Moore has released a new movie and it's time to get the forums all riled up into a partisan frenzy.

The only thing this movie didn't show is why I shouldn't be that we don't have universal health care. I'm convinced that must be one good, intelligent, reason why Americans aren't getting the same treatment as a bunch of Cubans or Gitmo prisoners. It is Michael Moore, he does love to favor the point he's trying to make and tends to be biased, so surely there must be a good reason for it. Tell me.

I dare you.

elliott (otiose)...

Alright guys... I'm just going to sort of sit here with my finger on the lock button. Talk is good, so let's play nice!

My opinion about Michael Moore is that he has the talent to ask the difficult questions that most are scared to say. He is definitely talented. But on the other hand he loses all credibility when he starts preaching his message to the viewer or to a person (Bowling for Columbine Charlton Heston Interview for example). I think that the best stuff he did was in his earlier work because I think all of the attention and power he got as a result of his last two docs went to his head.

i thought this movie was terrifying...i know that the world according to michael moore is extremely biased, but the fact that the kinds of things he shows in this movie even happen is a huge eye-opener for me.

i think the smartest move michael moore made in this movie was to focus on the problems that people with insurance were faced with as opposed to those without it, which is what i was expecting.

Ok - I just got back from watching this film. (from at the AWESOME new Landmark West Los Angeles Cinema near Westwood - wine bar, pizza, and "livingroom" screens with couches for seates - AWESOME)

I thought the film was great - a wonderful piece of filmmaking. Scary though and he made alot of great points.

When the your house is on fire the fire department doesn't check to see if you have fire insurance. They save your life and your house.

Anything dealing with a life and death situation shouldn't have a profit motive. There is no reason that everyone in the United States shouldn't have free healthcare. Not affordable healthcare - but FREE healthcare. Of course one would have to pay a little more in taxes - but I'll take the piece of mind any day.

The fact that he made the film about the INSURED and not the uninsured was an wonderful filmmaking choice by Mr. Moore - that way the film relates to all of us.

There's nothing like about to being a father that wakes you up to all of the potential health care problems in the world.

Wonderfully edited and extremely powerful. Great film. EVERYONE should see it. Healthcare shouldn't be a Republican or Democratic issue.

The section with the British politician talking about how universal heathcare is there in the UK because of DEMOCRACY. Wonderful stuff.

Come to think of it - when I studied abroad in France for a year when I was in college, I had to go to the doctors about three times and even had some minor surgery as well. And yes...I can remember not having to pay for anything but I'm just remembering it now.

I was sick, I went to the doctor, they fixed me, and I went home. It's amazing now to think of it.

I've lived some of my adult life without health care and it was hair-raising - and now after watching this film and having healthcare I'm just as nervous as I was before when I didn't have healthcare.

There's no reason (except for the lobbying power of the HMOs and Drug companies) that everyone in this country shouldn't have access to free heathcare. We're the richest country in the world!

Watch this film. It's awesome.

-Chris
Studentfilms.com

quote:

Originally posted by Studentfilms.com:
When the your house is on fire the fire department doesn't check to see if you have fire insurance. They save your life and your house.

That's completely different. The Fire Dept has no connection to the insurance companies whatsoever.

Hospitals only check to see if you have insurance in order to record what type it is. They still save your life if you don't have any.

quote:

Originally posted by Josh:
They still save your life if you don't have any.

This is exactly the statement Moore refutes in the film...have you seen it?

I haven't, but I used to work in a hospital, so I know the process.

Throughout the movie maybe 8-10 real people die just because they cannot afford the expensive treatments and medications.
I don't know if Moore's statistic is completely true (18,000 people die every year for no other reason than that they have no health insurance) but those 8 or so stories were enough to persuade me that there is a real problem.

Getting expensive surgery is one thing. Stumbling into an emergency room with an arrow through your head needing immediate treatment is different.

Moore also states that the inability to pay medical bills is the number one cause of American bankruptcy. So, you may be treated to get that arrow out of your head, but, you might go bankrupt in doing so. You won't, however, go bankrupt paying back the fire department for putting out your house fire. Both of those are extreme cases, though. Disease and general illness and expensive surgery are the likely reasons for a hospital visit, in which Moore explains how even paying insurance companies fail these poor clients.

Also, if you were filing a claim for a house fire, wouldn't the insurance company be in connection with the fire department? If so, how and why is that different from a hospital?

elliott (otiose)...

quote:

Originally posted by Josh:

That's completely different. The Fire Dept has no connection to the insurance companies whatsoever.

Hospitals only check to see if you have insurance in order to record what type it is. They still save your life if you don't have any.

It's an extremely viable and perfect example.

When you go into the hospital with an arrow in your head without insurance, you leave with a $30,000 bill.

When your house burns down, the only thing you lose is the valuables that weren't insured, and you sure as hell don't get a $30,000 bill from the fire department.

The fire and police departments are a public service for life threatening situations - so should health care.

The people in the film HAD life threatening situations and they died because the insurance companies denied their treatment.

-Chris
Studentfilms.com

quote:

Originally posted by MeGrimlock:
Also, if you were filing a claim for a house fire, wouldn't the insurance company be in connection with the fire department?

No, it wouldn't. The Fire Dept doesn't get paid by insurance companies. They get money through tax dollars and the government.

quote:

Originally posted by Josh:
No, it wouldn't. The Fire Dept doesn't get paid by insurance companies. They get money through tax dollars and the government.

EXACTLY! This is how it should be for health care!!!!

Watch the film.

-Chris
Studentfilms.com

I believe smaller government and absence of government/third party interference in medicine and health care is a much better solution that socialized medicine.
Similar to all goods and services, health care is best delivered by the free market, using competition and financial incentives to keep prices low.
Inexpensive, quality health care is possible without raising taxes and expanding our government.

A great documentary mainly because it was less in your face and definitely shows the human side of the issue of healthcare and insurance rather than making it completely political. I think Moore has learned from making this film is that rather than shaping facts into an interesting story (Fahrenheit 9/11) the stories of real people affected by U.S. healthcare are much more engaging and interesting.

Also I agree that I would shell out extra cash in tax dollars if it meant that every person in the country could be taken care of if they are sick or injured and not go bankrupt paying for. I already pay for my own health insurance so why not pay for mine as well as help others (unless that would make us communists).

quote:

Originally posted by braininabox:
Similar to all goods and services, health care is best delivered by the free market, using competition and financial incentives to keep prices low.

Consider that for a second and watch the film. Insurance companies only care about one thing - making themselves money! Anything that deals with life and death situations should not have money involved.

We're the only country in the Wester World that DOESN'T have free national health care.

Free market? That will never lead to cheap health care. That will only lead to rich CEOs.

Do you pay for healthcare? Have you ever had to worry about heathcare? Have you ever gotten a $2000 bill from an ambulance company that only took your wife a block away to the hospital and your insurance company wouldn't cover it? (I have)

I never understood the magnitude of the problem until I got out from under my parent's cushy health insurance program when I left college ages ago.

quote:

Originally posted by braininabox:
Similar to all goods and services

Heathcare shouldn't be a goods and service. It's your Health! It's life and death! It isn't a luxury! It is a basic need! And it should be free to all citizens of the best country around.

-Chris
Studentfilms.com

after my car accident, the total billing (ambulance, helicopter, and hospital) was well over $20,000. Thank God I was still under my parents Insurance or I would never have been able to pay that off. Then, I think of all the people out there who can't afford insurance and would be sitting on $20,000 of debt. I think there should be a national health care system, and if people can afford it, they can pay for a more advanced coverage.

On a more recent note, I am glad police services are without charge. Just last night my car was broken into and I just got done talking with the police. I all ready have to shell out $200 to get the window replaced, i'm glad I don't have to worry about paying the officers.

My point is just that if you look at the healthcare system of the 50's and 60's you will see that very affordable and high quality healthcare is possible with minimal government intervention.

I know current American health care is in terrible condition...and I loved Sicko for they way it pointed that out. I just don't know if you realize that our current mess of a healthcare system (HMO's etc.) is a result of government intervention.

quote:

Originally posted by braininabox:
I just don't know if you realize that our current mess of a healthcare system (HMO's etc.) is a result of government intervention.

Of course I know - it's a result of government intervention IN A BAD WAY. ie - Nixon and Kaiser creating HMOs. That's an example of corrupt business and politicals working together.

Government can change it back to a national health system in a good way. If Canada, the UK, Spain, Italy, France, and every other western nation can do it...so can we.

Government "intervention" can be a good thing - i.e. health standards for your food. Look what is happening in China - they have no health board and look how it is affecting us here in the states. For some things - things that deal with OUR HEALTH - government "intervention" is good - IF it can be done to create a national healthcare system.

-Chris
Studentfilms.com