i am wondering if my films are just not for this kind of audience. it is just a thought but it seems that the audience on this site(and this is not bad in any way) crave for more action or more comedy or have different tastes in films.

maybe mine are not the kind of films this audience cares about. again, i am ok with this but i am wondering what people like out there.

it is easy to make films for yourself--i make them b/c i like what i make, but do others? should my auidence dictate what i create, or should i? or should i find a median?

you decide, i am lost!

Alejandro Lalinde
kubrick77

That deffinently is a big part od it. When (not "if" but "when") I put "Intersection" up here, despite the hype, i dont know that it will go over as big as say, "Takeback 2" or "Toast Duster" (both of which i enjoy BTW) Those films are guilty pleasures. Its fun to sit back, have a laugh and enjoy some good old fashioned mayhem. "Intersection" on the other hand has a few things going against it.

1) Its 28 min long. Longer shorts sem to get less viewers then the 5 min and under categories.
2) It is a complex thriller. It requires the viewer to get involved in the story, in order for the reveals and payoffs to... well, payoff. This is easy in a movie theater with surround sound, and atmosphere but it dosent have the same emotional impact on a 4 inch screen.
3) There are no laugh to speak of. It is a serious film, that is meant to entertain in its design and execution. if you like movies with a twist, its for you. If you want something a little more straight forward, well, it might not be. There is atleast a cool fight sequence.

Different strokes, different folks. Im under the impression that most of the viewers here are younger. 25 and under id say. The action extravaganza, and comedic tom foolery are sure to be hits. The question is, now that you seem to have pin pointed this will you attemopt to make a film for this audience? Im not taking about being a sellout, but discovering what any given audience wants s a BIG accomplishment. The next challenge would be trying to create something those mases will enjoy. If you can do that, your on your way to the big time. Good observation BTW.
R. Michael
P. S.
The next time your goign to be in N. C. be sure to let me know. Looks like im here to stay.

"Luck, is when opportunity, meets preperation." "There are 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth, and none of us are lying" -Robert Evans

i can't even remember what films are yours...can you mention them?

But yeah, your film isn't gonna we viewed by everyone...when I see the new films on the website I first look at the titles...what title seems the most interesting? I know this may be a shallow way to choose a film, but I feel that a title for the film is extremely important, it either can be a real clever and cool title...or just stupid.

The other thing I look at is the 3 pictures that pop up, most the times I never like the pictures cause they all look the same! <----Once again, another shallow way of finding a film.

But I usually try and watch as many films as I can...there's never really one category I lean towards but I myself prefer thrillers and horror ones on this website, those seem to be the best,

I agree with ya kubrick cause I know when I post some of my films, they are gonna long and have lots of character development and dialogue...which most people don't like, they wanna skip all that and get to the car chase or the naked girls.

My movies will have action but it will be mostly mild...kinda like Pulp Fiction action...a few guns here and there...but the plot and dialogue is what I care about most, I usually just toss in a scene of violence to get the viewer excited and keep 'em hooked.

I do plan on having a stupid action movie up which i'm gonna start making as soon as school starts...I prefer to try out all mediums of filmmaking.

But back to the point...make a movie YOU want...write a script that you like then maybe afterwards throw in a gunfight or the "f" word to catch viewers attention...but you first, audiece second.



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I see your point, Kyle, but I disagree. I think it's irresponsible filmmaking to not keep the target audience in mind. Granted, the target audience may not be 15-25 year olds who hang around studentfilms.com, but you gotta know who your audience is. Filmmaking is a collaborative art form and it's not fair to your cast and crew and financiers if you make yourself the target audience. That said, filmmakers shouldn't add elements just to appeal to certain audiences that aren't part of the original concept of the film. That IS selling out.

Kubrick, yes, please tell us your name or your films so I can check them out. Yes, I'll agree the more outspoken voices here have an affinity towards slapstick violence and vulgarity, but know that many, many people watch films and don't comment in the forums or with the ratings system. It's a silent majority. Hopefully if and when Chris puts up counters on each film, you'll see that.

But, still, just having a film up here is cool. Especially if it's not like everyone else's.

my .02
joren

believe me, I hardly think of what the audience is gonna be thinking...the only time I think about the audience is when I'm writing a scene thats I know it gonna either gross 'em out or make 'em laugh...but yea...I'm a tool

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Kubrick77's Films

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If you wan't to have a career in film or videomaking, considering your audience IS the key element. Takeaway your self-want and artistic desires for a second. Say if Bill(your older woodworking friend) decided he wanted to publish a how-to on constucting a doghouse. Are you going to shoot it with fisheye lenses and use shaky handheld camerwork and make an edit every 3 seconds? Well ya, I mean it brings out the soul of woodwork and the doghouse and whatnot else..except no. The older people constructing the doghouse won't be able to stand the quick edits and will get nausiated from the camerawork..and trust me, they won't care about the artistic merit. Why do that in the first place? No talent agents will be watching the video and be there to "discover" your artistry, unless it's another shop work company. Keeping the same extreem techniques as before, could you use them for a skateboarding video? Yes! Obviously younger audiences can stand that kind of footage. But for a skateboarding video, would you make the camera sit on the tripod and film the tricks "maturely?" No! They'd say that the video sucks! So, with that in mind, if your making "Films" and not specialty videos, much does change in the process. If you wan't to make an artistic film, there are many people and festivals with audience ready to examine and take your "experimental" film or whatever else it is. Could that same mature audience not like a video where everone ends up killing eachother with bats at the end? Yes, very likely at a film festival. You'd be best to try a younger audience for feedback. What I'm saying is that if you feel that your not getting enough correct exposure in this grab bag but mostly short attentien spanned teens, take your films elsewhere to a place you think it will be not only looked at through the right eyes, but respected. You can't blame the target audience here at studentfilms.com, we are mostly high school and college students as said before. So don't make films for us, anyway why should you? If that's not what you do best then don't even bother. Try your films somewhere else you think would get the best response, your target audience. Every hollywood film has one, and just because older people don't like "There's Something about Mary" doesn't make it a bad movie. If the teens it was targeted at liked it, the film's mission was accomplished. Don't let a 54 year old Roger Ebert tell you what is good and bad, most of us aren't middle aged.

First of all, adressing the target audience: Since most of the audience here at studentfilms is probably 15-25, the main target audience for hollywood, I think it is pretty amazing that your (Lalinde's) films have got so much viewing (they have like 25 reviews each!). But also adressing the same issue of said target audience, we, speaking as a 17 year old male, don't get enough credit. I mean, we're treated as if we wouldn't know what to do with a thought-provoking film, like we need the mile-a-minute explosive actions, gross-out comedies, or whatever. MOst of us can see right through the pointless, voids of originality that consttute plot, story, and characters. Why is it so popular then? Partly because a lot of it is cool, but you also have to consider that there is very few intelligent, poignant films that our age group can relate to. Basically, we've never really been given any other option besides trite.

Second of all, Screenwriter_14 mentioned using appropriate styles to convey the video in the best way, and this is goes very much with my analysis of Lalinde's films.
Obviously, you are a talented filmmaker, but I have problems with your material. First, I think they would make great scenes from a larger movie, but fail by themselves. By themselves they lack any emotional weight or anything deeper; Like in heist, while beautifully filmed, we don't know why the character double-crosses the two other men, and it doesn't hold any kind of meaning. Even your film War Letter, which appears to be about something deeper than the simple plot, does not have any kind of meaning. The images are haunting and beautiful, like the final shot of a blood soaked american flag patch, but, since it doesn't have any kind of meaning, the images are hollow.
I know many people are ardently against art/film having any kind of meaning to it, but it all goes back to what screenwriter_14 said about appropriate styles for the audience and (more importantly) the purpose of the film. While their is something to be said for films that can provide entertainment through frivolity, but if you talk about art, and being taken seriously, meaning is important. The meaning of your film, what you want to get across to your audience, should then dictate everything that happens in the film. From this, your style is born; you think about the issue you address, how you feel about it (your tone) and how you want your audience to feel about it, and then every aspect, sound, light, action, acting, colors, etc. should fall into place in order to best get across your meaning.
Anyway, i think you could make a great thirty minute film (I would certainly watch it), because I think your shorts suffer mostly from the emotional depth of longer films. For instance, in most of your films you do a fairly good job setting up characters, but only to the extent that we can distinguish them as characters, but the audience cannot gain any kind of emotional attachedness, a trait which I think many of your shorts depend on.
Honestly, Lalinde, I enjoy watching your films, I think you are a director with great potential and I don't want to sound like I'm picking on you and your films, my greif with meaning goes for all films on this site (that I've seen) but you posted this issue, so I might as well give you my two cents.

thank you for your comments and suggestions. hey wish i could make a longer film, but at this point, i guess what my shorts are trying to accomplish is that i am capable of longer work . . . and if you would want to see more, that's good, thought i cannot go any farther at this point b/c of financial and time reasons.

i think you hit the nail when you said that the films end too quickly, you know, they set up the characters right, but they just fall off b/c of their brevities in time.

making films is one diffifult endeavor, especially if you are producing, directing, etc but the more i make shorts the more i want to think before i do something longer, b/c it does take all my time and effort, and as a director, you must be in love with that vision the whole way through, and not doubt yourself for one minute if the story or characters still interest me.

For me, these shorts are nothing. well at one point they were everything but now they are merely calling cards--this is what i've done, this is what i can do. and that's it. they are just bit of examples of what i am capable of, and ths is by myself--producing, directing, and shooting all at once. they are merely stepping stones to larger things, and i hope people can see them as that.

If I were you I'd see my talent and strenghs and focus on that...your really good with your lighting and directing...story seems to be your weak spot (believe me, this applies to most the films on this website...but we're students, so it's ok! ) So I would get someone you know who's a good writer and just pitch them an idea you've wanted to do for a longer film (15-30 min) but could never really get down what you wanted on paper...so they can write it for you.

But yeah, your lighting job in your films is really good.

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Target Audience? You gotta be fu#cking kidding me, were the hell are the real film students? You all sound like Marketing Undergraduates. Have some balls and make a movie for yourself. I swear somtimes I feel like we're in the 80's all over again "Greed is Good".

If your thinking for even a moment about giving the audience what they want instead of what your script and film is trying to explore you are no longer a filmaker, just a fu8cking garbage recycler. And if appealing to target audiences is your motivation for filmaking maybe you all should just start making porn, 15-25 yearolds love porn.

Small personal films, conveying emotion, art; dammit you should all know this already. And I hope Bill (my older woodworking freind )gets his hand stuck in a woodchipper on the set.

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"I had this nightmare that ten years from now I would be on the set of the Incedible Hulk and I was telling a reporter , Hey I gotta eat!"
Ethan Coen, 1985

[This message was edited by Mcrukker on July 29, 2003 at 12:39 PM.]

Or were you too lazy to read all of mine and Zulucom's posts? The begining of my post I was talking about how if you make a skateboard/woodworking "video" you absoulutely NEED to look at it through the eyes of who will be watching it, so they can best enjoy and comprehend it. Otherwise, if you make the video in an inapropriate manner you'll FAIL. Failing = no money, comprende? I also ask, why would you make every specialty video for yourself anyway? Making art comes later.. and then I changed what I was talking about.

"So, with that in mind, if your making "Films" and not specialty videos, much does change in the process."

Now i'm talking about making "films". Films or movies of infinite possible latitude. Maybe artistic, maybe personal, and maybe it's not too important that they don't please everyone. Notice I say stuff changes mcrucker. When you make your films, I hope you don't think, "im making this film about and for loser adults that still live with their parents, showing how alot of times, it's not their fault.." and then halfway through be like "hey, what if we change the POV to the parents that want the kid out of the house, that'll appeal to the parents who actually have this problem." When I say you need to make the film work best for your "target audience", I don't mean "the" target audience of movies(14-21 year olds), you need to keep the film's perspective continuous and true. Who are you aiming at? Your friends? People who love slapstick? Open minded college students? Sci-fi buffs? Because trust me, you rarely ever have time or money to please everyone.

The difference between your own work and what someone else want's you to do (like bill) is that your not initially dictated to who you must stay true to, but in business and hollywood, if you change around other people's own goals too much, you'll be out of a job.

So next time don't be so offensive and quick to accuse, I see you doing that alot on this board.

Ok, I don't, maybe someone with a movie on this site can tell me, but I don't exactly think anyone here has a made a million dollars from a film they've made. So, when I speak of the audience, I don't mean from any kind of financial way. I speak of the audience like all art has and needs an audience. Art without an audience is just therapy. The artist, howver, very much needs to consider his/her audience, because art is not a one-sided deal; it is a communion, and when you say
"If your thinking for even a moment about giving the audience what they want instead of what your script and film is trying to explore you are no longer a filmaker, just a fu8cking garbage recycler." You're wrong, because there shouldn't be any kind of division between what your audience (even if it's a relatively small audience) wants and the way your film is made and what it delivers. Art and Film is made to be viewed, so, any good filmmaker realizes that his audiences perceptions, what they want, etc. are just another tool in which to better tell your film.

God, this is a pet peeve of mine; we all piss and moan about how audiences have bad tastes and how they should like to watch quality films instead of the hollywood trite they're fed, but then people like you, McRukker, talk about art (and viewing it) as if it was some kind of fist-sized pill everyone has to take in order for them to feel better.
Art doesn't have to be a commercial success to be a good film, that's not what I'm saying, nor am I saying a personal film has no audience, and if, as student filmmakers, people want to make personal films without mind for anything but your own tastes, fine, but don't kid yourself by calling it art.

Let me clarify, I think if you honestly portray a characters journey and communicate the emotions and visions you have as a director the audience will follow. But to consciously try and direct your message to a particular audience is a mistake while crafting a story on paper or on film, just an opinion sorry for the offensive tone in the last post. Actually I take that back F you.

So many people post on here with this authoritative tone on “what you need to do to make a film” I’m obviously guilty of this also so for that I apologize. I just think the audience should be the last thing one thinks of as a student filmmaker who is trying to experiment.

My response was really to Kubrick who asked “it is easy to make films for yourself--I make them b/c I like what I make, but do others? Should my audience dictate what I create?” and I’m answering no. Honest quality work will find an audience.

As for Zulu saying “there shouldn't be any kind of division between what your audience wants and the way your film is made” (shudder) I’m not sure what you mean but I do know I just threw up on myself when I read it, just an emotional response I guess. So I’ll just address Kubrick here and let you guys continue on your market analysis of what audiences need.

Kubrick, please continue to make films that you like not what you hope others will enjoy. Leave the crowd pleasing to our specialty videomakers here.

P.s. I'm still recovering from Screenwriter14's comment about crowd pleasing and I quote "Takeaway your self-want and artistic desires"
It's echoing in my head. Make it stop. Take it back and apologize! MAKE IT STOP ARRRGGHHHHH!!!!

[This message was edited by Mcrukker on July 30, 2003 at 12:29 PM.]

I don't think I made my opinion clear enough after reading my quote in McRukker's post.
I don't mean you should w hore your work out for the audience, but not keeping the audience in mind (even if "the audience" is as vague as any human viewing your work) is foolish because, as I said before, art is a communion; the audience needs to get something out of the work; they are not just there to marvel at the artist's abilities.

When I say audience, I mostly am taking about the act of witnessing art (in this case, film). The best directors know how their audience is going to view their film, and can then manipulate that experience to better tell their story.

Now, when McRukker says "I just think the audience should be the last thing one thinks of as a student filmmaker who is trying to experiment." I am inclined, somewhat, to agree, but I think it's really just an excuse, besides students can just as easily experiment with the perceptions and expectations of the audience.

So, go ahead, make films for yourself, and then be prepared to watch them by yourself, because the audience isn't just a part of the unfortunatly necessary business side of film, but a very important aspect of the art of film (and of all art).

Well said Zulucom..

As for Mcrucker- I thought that you topped yourself for being rude and ignorant, but then you come back with stuff that's already been noted with a childish atitude. If you can't understand what I've wrote, please, read it at least 1-2 more times!


My comment "Takeaway your self-want and artistic desires" was only applying to when your making someone else's video or are being asked to film under someone else's goal/priority. Yes, films, videos and comercials sometimes make money, and if you are paid to film them(and their not your own), don't compromise it with totall self interest. Hopefully you know what audience it will be seen by and you need to film with that in mind.....Moving on, I started talking about making "films," your own stuff like you me and Kubrick77 are doing. Not for money all the time, but the question of audience still does apply. How can you be so selfish and not think about anyone other than yourself watching your film. You say it comes natural, but this surely isn't the case, it takes patience and experementing to be effective to your audience. Your free to choose who that is, but it should stay the same, for a continuous tone. Doing that, you can still have a particualar style and uniqueness to your film without being a sellout. This may or may not have anything to do with profit. I don't make my sh*tty films for money, I make them for my friends and no one else (15-17 year olds). I'm trying more mature stuff now, but I'll still try to be continuous with consideration for older audiences.


So Kubrick77, maybe I was a little blurry about this, but the bottom line is that your films may not appeal to this studentfilms.com audience, but I know they all took work and are without a doubt worth an appearance to another group. I told you earlier that you should maybe submit it to a film festival, they might be more considerate. I never said you should make your own stuff with the intent of only making money from them. And don't be down if a group of people don't like your films how they are. Do what you do best, keeping in mind who the films are for, and give it to them.

quote:

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Originally posted by screenwriter_14:
I don't make my sh*tty films for money, I make them for my friends

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That was the funniest and scariest thing I have ever read. Really you should make t-shirts hell I'd buy one. Along with a bumper sticker that reads "Takeaway your self-want and artistic desires" you’d make a fortune.

Joking aside I see your points and I respect them completely; I now realize the futility in trying to delineate two fundamentally opposing dogmatic philosophies and I apologize for my immature tone. Just kidding you're a poo-poo head.


[This message was edited by Mcrukker on July 30, 2003 at 02:54 PM.]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mcrukker:
Joking aside I see your points and I respect them completely; I now realize the futility in trying to delineate two fundamentally dogmatic philosophies and I apologize for my immature tone. Just kidding you're a poo-poo head.

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Wow, they sure are two very different points of view for TWO different situations. You fail to read once more. Took you long enough to respond, you must have spent a lot of time at dictionary.com to research those big words. I don't even need to respond after this, once someone starts saying "poo-poo head," they've lost the argument. But go ahead and have the last word you pile of pee pee.

Easy killer, I was just joking around. But you're right I did hurt my brain with those 5-dollar words. I thought it would be funny to apologize for being immature and then call you a poo-poo head, you're not a poo-poo head and I still love you; and your mamma.

Anyway Kubrick77 has a nice body of work here on the site and I hope his confidence level continues to grow. Overall I was just responding to the lack of support he was given when he asked about his work and his philosophy. Intelligible garbage about specialty videos and "sh*tty Films for my friends" made me angry. And I was hoping that when a filmmaker asks, "should my audience dictate what I create" there would be a bunch of us yelling at the top of or lungs HELL NO! But instead we have screenwriter_14 saying "take your films elsewhere" and some strange explanation of "a how-to on constructing a doghouse"

So Kubrick there are some of us here who like your stuff alot and hope you don't "take your films elsewhere" because the demographic here is capable of understanding more than just cheap action and comic dribble.

[This message was edited by Mcrukker on July 30, 2003 at 03:25 PM.]

<-what the hell is up with your little avatar picture dude? It looks stupid.

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