If you're shooting single camera hollywood style, using p2 cards really shouldn't slow anything down. It's the run and gun gorilla or documentary style that will have to adapt the workflow to allow for dumping cards to a p2 store or hard drive.

Harris, there is already this available. And JVC has whole line of them including this. If you think economics of scale, solid state media will be just too expensive to put a lot of into consumer equipment. Obviously, it's a lot better than hard drives, but most consumers buying cameras in the 500-5000 range aren't educated or won't care enough for the manufacturers to spend the extra $$$. Just my opinion/prediction.

yeah, hvx200 doesn't use hdv, but all the other HD cameras <$10k do. All I was saying is that I'm slowly changing my mind about HDV as an acquisition format. But I still think HVX200 is the best camcorder in it's category and I'd rather be working with DVCproHD than HDV in post.

As for RED, it's a camera being built by the guy from Oakley that'll do better than 4K resolution, up to 120 FPS, and 4:4:4 color space all for less than $20K (not counting lens' and data capture device). Still theoretical, but they just announced today they just got their first full rez images from their proprietary CMOS sensor. They hope to be shipping it by beginning of next year.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot. I wanted to mention to Kegan that it's not the AVCHD format (which uses a flavor of MPEG-4 layer 10, AKA h.264). These HHD camcorders use plain old MPEG-2 (still not sure if it's HD, though)

Edit # 2: F'd up a link.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: joren,

Wow. The Red thing looks amazing. I want one.

Oh, okay and sorry for my ignorance. RED is a pretty cool concept, but I have a question for you guys. This is a student website, how can you guys afford a camera like RED, or pay for P2 cards for a HVX?

I guess I didn't consider how to handle the P2 workflow. I never really thought about it. Just seemed a little difficult. I was thinking of run and gun as thats what a lot of my work is based around.

-Kegan

I wasn't actually serious about getting one. But I do want one...

Oh haha, so do I...wishful thinking I suppose though

-Kegan

quote:

Originally posted by Kegan:
This is a student website, how can you guys afford a camera like RED, or pay for P2 cards for a HVX?

Well, "student" can mean peoples ranging from kindergarten to college and even people who are deciding that they want to make this more than just a hobby. But, where I want to focus here is mostly the high-schoolers who can't quite afford the cameras but are about to make a big financial decision about which film school to go in debt for. Now if you're like me and believe (which very few people ever do) that you have just as good, if not better, of a chance to make it in the industry by bypassing college and using the money to make your own movie, then it's fair to think about such questions.

Heck, even if you're fresh out of college and are thinking about other large expenses like a car or house, who needs those when you have friends or family with houses and cars that you might be lucky enough to crash at or drive? I need a car now, but when I'm able to afford one, I'm going with a camera instead and making do with the imperfect system I have going for me now.

I know that if I could do it all over again I'd certainly buy one of these cameras (or bought thier equivalent five years ago,) instead of going to college. Hell, I might've even made a movie by now.

Enh, hindsight is 20/20 and all that. But there's your answer.

elliott (otiose)...

Thanks for the replies.

I'm starting university this September actually, but am sort of like you in a certain regard. When all my friends were saving up for a car, I spent the $4k CDN I could have bought a decent first car with and purchased a DVX. This may be that I have a car to use for now, or by going away to university I won't really have the need for a car but a camera was the logical choice for me regardless.

I was going to film school, but decided against it last minute and thought that I needed a safety net so to speak. Not necessarily a different career to fall back on, but a degree that would help me get a job, if push comes to shove.

Oh, and about my question, I guess "student" is a broad term and can be applied to any age group and is just a generalization to someone learning the craft at a beginner or intermediate level.

-Kegan

Kegan said:

quote:

This is a student website, how can you guys afford a camera like RED, or pay for P2 cards for a HVX?

A four-gig P2 card is about $500. Two of those, along with an HVX and a niced-up editing suite, will cost me less than 10 grand. I don't have it all right now, but I'm taking a semester off to live cheap with my parents and work a real job, so things are looking good. Now to kick my drug habits.

Oh, and Evan, I meant to respond to your 8-bit comment. The HVX records HD in 15-bit on four channels, SD in 12-bit on four, or SD in 16-bit on two. Of course, I don't even know why I'm mentioning SD here. Ugh, in a few months, I'll never touch the stuff...

Edit: Oh, and to Joren concerning RED: GASP! Maybe I'll keep saving another year...

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:
Now to kick my drug habits.

Come on now, you've already made that joke.

elliott (otiose)...

Harris-

You seem to have the audio bits mixed up with video. There aren't multiple 'channels' on the tape for video.

DVCPRO HD is an 8-bit format. From everything I've seen, this is what the HVX uses, even if you record on P2. I know the Varican is always 8 bit unless you use SDI out and record to drive. Tape formats in general are limited in their ability to record high bit video in real time. Compare this to film where there is a huge amount of detail and information on the emulsion and it can be scanned at 10 bit or even higher if you wish.

Evan,

Sorry. I thought you WERE talking about audio. Doesn't all video end up as 8-bit anyway?

MeGrimlock said:

quote:

Come on now, you've already made that joke.

The first time it was "habit." The pluralization compounds the humor.

There are 10, 12, and 16 bit video formats but they're used mainly for post production. Like Evan's recent film scan that was 10-bit. The only video camera that shoots better than 8-bit is the Genisis camera that shoots 10-bit log (equivalent to 16 straight bits). The image capturing devices (the CCDs) can't capture a latitude that necessitates anything better than 8 bits. Camcorders normally capture 12-14 raw bits and then apply a gamma which compresses it down to the 8 bit range. A much more relevant discussion would be the sample rate of the color. Like 4:1:1 of DV. Or the 4:2:0 of HDV. Or the 4:2:2 of DVCpro HD (and 50). Or 4:4:4 of CineAlta. Those are all 8-bit formats, but compress the color differently. Adam Wilt does an amazing job describing this in his DV FAQ.

As for the student website issue, I don't think there's many people (student or otherwise) that plan to personally purchase the Red camera or the HVX200 (all the more power to you, Harris). However, especially for students, I think it's important to stay up to date on current technology trends. It wouldn't shock me at all to hear that film schools are buying Red cameras in the near future.

By no means am I complaining of such talks. I like to keep up to date with new technology as well. It's always interesting to me to find out about all these new revolutionary cameras and how they will change workflows for the better. The RED camera seems to be "THE" sub $100k camera for independant film makers. If they start appearing in film schools, then all the better for students.

It's amazing how companies are trying to close the gap between consumer and prosumer products for less fortunate people to be able to afford the features of a prosumer model. Not only that, I think it's a smart marketing scheme because by doing so and slowly fazing out consumer products by adding all sorts of manual features, the prices will go up forcing consumers to shell out the extra money. It's sort of finding a middle ground between the cost of a high end consumer camera and a low end prosumer camera.

-Kegan

Hey Joren, does this new Sony marvel camera perhaps use AVCHD?

Edit:

quote:

Oh, I almost forgot. I wanted to mention to Kegan that it's not the AVCHD format

Oops. Never mind. Next time I'll read before I write.

Any updates on this, Joren? I'm about to make a major purchase, and I'll be kicking myself if Sony releases a miracle camera the day after I do it.

And I still can't afford a RED.

google Sony HDRSR1

More consumer than I was hoping.

Bummer. And it IS AVCHD! I knew it!

Well, that seals it. Three weeks from now I'll be the proud owner of a JVC HD110. Yeah, I did a complete reversal on the anti-HDV thing. Now I'm pro-HDV, anti-DVCproHD, if that's confusing enough.

I'll probably post again in three weeks to let you know that I decided to hold out for the HD200... and then again for the HD250...

Thanks, Joren.

I'm very happy with my HDV (a Sony HDR-A1U). I don't know that much about compression and formats, but I do know that the stuff that I've shot with it looks awesome. I'd recommend it.

Harris,

Do you 'need' such a great camera for a proffesion? a job? Or is it for your independent filmmaking?

I am just curious why you are spending so much money on a camera? (maybe you have a idea were you need this camera for, a long film maybe?)

Even if its just for short films, i think the camera IS important, a lot of people always say that the image is not very important and that the writing and acting is. But i think a nice picture also helps the story and the feeling.

.. so why are you want a HD camera if i may ask?

not to hijack my own thread, but I'd like to know more about Harris' decision and why he turned on dvcproHD and hdv. I have too, but Harris seems more extreme than I.